Friends of the Cumbres & Toltec - FriendsOfCumbresToltec.org

At the 11/17/11 Commission Meeting Al Harper of AHR brought forward a recommendation to rebuild the Chama Turntable and Roundhouse. As is so often the case with the C&TS this is not a new idea, but it does have new and significant elements (such as converting the circa-1970 engine house to a machine shop, thus obviating the need for any roundhouse tracks to abruptly bend through to the engine house). Whether the AHR concept is feasible has yet to be determined, but to help such investigations along one logical place to start is for the parties (Commission, AHR, and Friends) to review past researches, specifically the 1998 study by the Friends to work out a preliminary design.

Back then several of us on the Friends board thought this project worth pursuing in cooperation with the then operator, George Bartholomew. But, please remember, at that time the Commission received little funding from the states, the Friends' had not yet developed a real fund-raising operation (it depended on member dues, book sales, and occasional small-scale private donations), and any funding for such an undertaking would have to come primarily from the operator's ticket revenues. But we were optimistic in the summer of 1998 as reflected in President Terri Shaw's column in the Dispatch:

"During the June work sessions, discussion continued on the topic of a proposed roundhouse and turntable in the Chama yard. Friends' member Kevin Corwin has presented the board with his research on those two historic structures with drawings and pictures of the Chama structures and other representative D&RGW turntables. Discussion of turntable options was greatly enhanced by the work of members Matt Hutson and Don Hausmann. Matt created measured drawings of the existing Durango turntable as a starting point for Don who was interested in helping us ascertain what it might cost to build a deck and girder turntable today from scratch. With the assistance of other members of his firm, March Adams & Associates, structural engineers in Chattanooga, Tennessee, Don produced a set of preliminary drawings for a prototypical 75' table. Based on these drawings, we think building a new turntable is an affordable and viable option. George Bartholomew agrees. Further discussion with the operator of possible roundhouse designs has been suspended pending appointment of a new Chief Mechanical Officer. However, Don Hausmann and several others, members of our mechanical team, took measurements this summer and intend to carry on discussion in the off-season about the engineering issues that must be addressed in the design of a new roundhouse and some possible solutions."

So what happened then? The short answer is "no money", but the truth is more complex. The study showed that shoe-horning in a 75' turntable and a rebuilt roundhouse would be rather difficult, especially since access was required to the 1970's engine house, but apparently there were also problems with the overall placement and size of the facility (e.g., providing sufficient working space in the stalls to accommodate K-36's). Fortunately, the study is in the Friends' library and is currently being reviewed to see if it might help determine feasibility of any future building project.

As for the money problem, unbeknownst to the Friends at the time, Bartholomew's "C&TSRR Corp." was already living on borrowed time and headed for insolvency. What he did do was find a totally inappropriate, 100' long, standard-gauge, C&S turntable up in Denver which he got donated and shipped down to Chama. Turns out the whole thing was so out of scale and in such deteriorated condition that there was no way to downsize it. It cluttered up the yard for several years until a Friends' work project hauled the parts down to an area southeast of the yard where it resides to this today.

There was also a realization that the C&S turntable was so far out of character with the historic nature of the yard that many preservationists were understandably aghast, and getting SHPO approval was problematic at best.

On the other hand, putting up a replacement roundhouse would likely be acceptable under the preservation standards that the SHPO's and the Friends follow by making sure that the structure did not try to be a fake imitation of the original. The Osier water tank reconstruction completed the next year at a cost to the Commission of over $100,000 is an example of an acceptable approach. Since a steam locomotive roundhouse's function largely dictates its design and layout a replacement should be doable without violating preservation standards.

Please also note on the 1994 Chama "Viewscape Requirements" drawings that the Commission and SHPO recognized the location of the former roundhouse as an area allocated for engine facilities expansion.

Dick, I'm moving this topic to the "Cumbres & Toltec" forum. That seems a more appropriate place. These sub-forums unders "Structures" are intended for areas that the Friends (specifically) deal with.

Dick, The roundtable discussion was an interesting exercise. Without any definite parameters established to this point that is all it can be. In that spirit, I do have a few questions to ask and a few observations. Why back in ’98 was a 75 foot turntable being looked at when the original 65 foot table was able to handle all of the locomotives? (The K-36 @58.65’ has the longest wheelbase) Going to 75 feet would decrease the amount of lead track per stall which is already only 66 feet.

Mr. Harper mentioned a 10 stall roundhouse which I believe was just an error. He continued and laid out his vision which included 5 bays for operations. With soon to be 5 operational engines, at least 2 of which will have to be based in Antonito to support the Polar express idea, how many bays would operations really need? (Yes that’s rhetorical). If the stall depth were to be increased from the original 65 feet to about 75 or 80 feet the work and safety issue will be addressed a bit. But, I don’t believe totally satisfactorily. Decreasing the new/rebuilt stall count from the original 6 to 5 would increase the angle between stalls from ~7.5* to ~9.0* and at the same time increasing their depth would, again in my opinion, provide for the needed additional space. Would SHPO agree? Only the Shadow and SHPO know for sure.

Locating the visitor center and museum in the original fabric of the round house has a certain cache’. Not to mention it places them in the center of activities and obviates the need for additional parking space. This hopefully becomes a nice problem to deal with in the future.

The machine shop area certainly can use the additional space and having an area where project rolling stock can be worked on out of the weather is another positive aspect of the proposal.

I do like the overall concept and I am looking forward to see how it all develops.

Rich -- The study is in Albuquerque, and I'm in Santa Fe and you're somewhere along the Delaware, so we'll have to wait on answers to your questions. The study should provide useful measurements and is simply another piece of information that needs to be examined for applicability.

My own thoughts on the matter, for what they are worth, are that the SHPO's would not be a problem unless the design were totally inappropriate (like a Butler building), but the overwhelming problem would be money -- just like before -- but worse because the AHR "concept" would require, not only money for a roundhouse and turntable as was the case in 1998, but sizable additional funding for a total reconfiguration of the existing facilities. So far, AHR's "concept" seems dependent upon "OPM's" (i.e., "Other People's Money"). Also, I'm from the school that says "ideas are easy, execution is hard" -- something that I'm sure was well understood at TI.

Dick, As you know I am concerned about where the funding is coming from also. As much as I like Mr Harper's vision he has never said he would build it or even invest any of his capital. His suggestion is to use the Friends visitor center funds for the seed money and to pay for the balance out of a 5% surcharge on ticket sales. His contribution would be by increasing ticket sales to 60,000 per annum. If I think about this as if it were a personal financial decision, I would want the other party to have some skin in the game before I went forward. Something along the lines of a performance bond is the first thing that comes to mind.

Rich --
My sentiments as well, especially the requirement to have "some skin in the game." Another consideration: because of the huge effort that was necessary to raise over $2 million for the Lobato trestle, the added costs of rebuilding 463, and the continuing lousy economy funding is very scarce. Furthermore, just continuing annual major maintenance on the existing loco fleet and further upgrades to the track means about a million or more is needed each year from state appropriations. -- Dick

I was interested to see that "eric" has posted on the NGDF that the Sumpter Valley has the 70' turntable originally from Alamosa, that it is pretty complete, and that it is looking for a home on a remaining segment of the Rio Grande.

I can call Taylor or Jerry Huck and find out more Dick. From what I have heard, they cant use it because the water table is too high.

Good Morning John:
At this point let's wait until things settle down. I learned from Tim that the Sumpter Valley folks have on more than one occasion approached the Friends about the TT. As you saw from my post above the problem is likely to be that no one has any money for such a project due to tough economic conditions and the press of other capital project needs.

Interesting about the water table problem at the SV. Chama water table is pretty close too -- it's only about 12-15 feet down to water from the ground level around the Chama water tank (a well was dug near there back in 2000-01 on recommend of Ed McLaughlin and Bob Wright, but flow was not sufficient). Certainly would rule out any use of areas to the SE of the 1970's engine house.

This is a computer generated picture of the 9 nine stall roundhouse scaled to the original drawings

John, Dick is right. Both Leo and I have been approached about the turntable from Tim Bain. We have the information required at this point in time. The concept is indeed interesting to many people so we'll have to see where it may go.

Would it be possible to show the round house and turntable in an overhead view that places it in the location it will occupy with the present buildings and track structure?
It might make it clearer how everything would fit together. Including the visitor center in the structure really does seem to make better sense than having a separate structure.
Thanks for considering this.
Allan